In the PUA
(pick-up artist) community, a shit test is defined as a method of filtering
women use on the fly, to sort potential mates from platonic friends (sometimes
emotional tampons or gophers), from completely disgusting individuals we
wouldn’t even wish on an enemy. The way it’s discussed, one would
think that negs (negative comments made or behaviors done to put the woman
on the defensive) are the domain of men, and shit tests are the domain
of women. Things aren’t quite so neat though, especially for those
of us who don’t conform or don’t measure up to the dominant standard wherever we are.
Unlike a “hot” chick, when we meet an average beta, he’s deciding whether
or not tolerating our perceived ugliness is worth a “pump and dump”.
If we’re in the range that he views us as among the best he can do, lookswise,
he might be checking us out to see if we’re relationship material.
Beta males shit test for the same reasons we do. They don’t want
to get saddled with what hey view as a bad investment of time, energy,
emotion, and resources. The problem is that just like most of us,
they’re testing for the wrong thing in the wrong way. At the end
of the day, a good many of them end up marrying real and obvious whores
completely unawares.
An Alpha male on the other hand, is a bit of an enigma because he’s
just in any sexual situation for either the status or the experience.
He won’t generally settle for someone he as an individual perceives as
ugly, unless he is in pursuit of status among the “normal” people, and
she is the ticket. This does not mean that he will remain faithful
to her though. Alphas have been known throughout history, to often
have conventionally attractive wives, and interesting non conventionally
beautiful mistresses. Sometimes that mistress is even male.
What makes an “ugly” woman worth sticking with, for the beta, is her
relative beauty compared to his other options, and that she doesn’t challenge
his sexuality in a way that he feels intimidated. For most, this
means she should be younger than him, and a virgin or close when she meets
him. Basically, you’re there to validate or enhance his status, make
his babies, and be an outlet for his sex drive if possible, in that order
of priority. The rest is optional to unnecessary in proportion to
his income. He doesn’t need you to have home skills if you can afford
maids, and doesn’t need you to be good in bed if you’re pretty. That’s
an Alpha requirement.
…which brings us to our first beta male shit test: when he asks how
many guys you’ve had sex with. Mind you, social Alphas may say or
do some of these things too, but their agenda is just a bit different.
What a beta male does unconsciously out of fear, an Alpha male does for
a specific, conscious purpose. So they may be equally screwed up,
but the exact risk from an Alpha type is less predictable.
Shit test #1: How many guys have you slept with?
A reasonably attractive woman who is 30 years old, who has been sexually
active since the age of say, 17, could reasonably have sex with 2 men per
year who were her actual boyfriend. That’s 26 men. Add the
occasional vacation fling, and we could say at least 30.
…but beta males, relying heavily on statistics
and averages, don’t want to hear that. So it leads to a dilema
about whether or not to tell the guy the truth when he asks a question
that he wants the answer to, but doesn’t really want to know the answer
to.
This question is basically meant to both gain information that will
qualify or disqualify you as a partner, and put you on the defensive.
The best answer to this question is to tell the truth if you’re under
20, and if you’re over 20 and not religious or reclusive, break up.
It’s a catch 22 situation. If you’ve had too few partners, he will
likely overestimate his value, and if you’ve had too many for his personal
taste, he’ll class you as a slut, even if the last time you had sex was
a year or more ago.
The only time you should actually answer that question is if you know
you’re dealing with someone who actually gets off on knowing his woman
was very sought after and sexually active, or maybe after your second child.
If he asks before that, he’s prepared to get rid of you if he gets the
“wrong” answer. A guy who is looking for reasons to dump you should
be kicked to the curb with steel toe work boots.
Shit test #2: What’s the kinkiest thing you’ve ever done?
If this involves group sex with more than one male who you were committed
to, ask yourself why your mind immediately jumped to that. If it
involves particularly rough sex, or casual sex with someone you barely
knew in a movie theater bathroom, ask yourself the same question.
Is it because the sex was very kinky or because you feel morally challenged,
and understand that this sort of thing is what will lead him to disqualify
you?
Again, if a guy is looking for reasons to dump you, beat him to the
punch. Tell him that at that point you don’t trust him enough
to tell him, that you feel he’s looking for reasons to get rid of you,
and end it there. If enough women do that, he might take the lesson
and just not get involved with women he feels are morally inferior to him
in the first place. If he wants a religious woman or a virgin, he
should actively seek that instead of expecting someone to have been saving
it for Mr. Hypothetical all their adult lives. He’s welcome to have
his double standards, but that doesn’t mean you have to cater to them.
Shit test #3: What are you looking for?
This one comes up alot online, and sometimes during initial meetings.
If a guy asks you this, he hopes your answer will be, “Just a one night
stand or some casual fun if you’re good, but no commitment please.”
Unless that is what you’re looking for, end it before you end up in
an hour long conversation about why you should compromise your standards
just this once. The more sociopathic or desperate sort will ask that
question and then conform to whatever it is that you say that you want.
Either way, he already has you classed in his mind as a sperm dump and
nothing more. If you’re feeling particularly sadistic, you can say
that you’re looking for a guy who likes to wear makeup, and be smacked
around and spit on.
Shit test #4: Friends with benefits.
He’s not your friend. He just wants to shag you regularly while
keeping his options open. You’ll do for now, but he thinks he can
do better. If he doesn’t think you’re good enough, tell him to go
find someone who is.
Shit test #5: It’s just sex.
There is no such thing as “just sex”. At its most casual, it is
still a means of ego validation. Its natural purpose though is bonding
and/or reproduction. The “just sex” designation before the sex happens
is a shit test to see if you are in the habit of casual sex. If you
fail this test, he’ll think of you as a slut. If you pass, he might
move on to the next, but he will respect you more.
If it’s said after sex, and especially after a “friends with benefits”
phase or undefined relationship, then it is the male version of the rapo
game. Read Games People Play for details on that. Basically,
it’s the same as a woman seducing a man, and then when he makes an advance,
she turns around and accuses him of somehow violating her or wanting to.
You probably shouldn’t have allowed yourself to touch him in the first
place, but after the fact, the best recovery is to just stop having sex
with him, and behave as if none of it ever happened. The only sign
there should be that it did, is that you don’t ever do it again.
More shit tests to come…
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I laughed pretty hard at this article.
Or you can ignore all this stuff in this article and be true to yourself. You start playing games with guys, and they’ll see you as nothing but a sex object. If you suspect that a guy is playing games with you, then respect yourself enough to walk away.
It’s not rocket science.
In what way is being aware of men’s shit tests not being true to one’s self? How is it playing games to not want to get lured into casual sex under false pretenses?
Because you’re so full of shit. None of what you wrote was true in the slightest. For starters, you’re not ugly if you’re not a supermodel. The vast majority of women are attractive to men. Certainly, there are different levels of beauty, and that applies to both men and women.
But the same rules apply to 10s who date 10s and 6s who date 6s. Ultimately, except for those who really don’t give a shit, people want to be loved for the person who they are. Both men and women are looking for the same damned thing out of relationships, and telling yourself differently is setting yourself up for failure.
If you want to find a man who will love you and respect you, then be honest with him from the start. If you’re 30 years old and have had 30 partners, then tell him you’ve had 30 partners. If he’s a prude or an idiot, he’ll think you a slut and leave, but in that case… Why would you want him to stay?
The questions aren’t shit tests, they’re ways to see if a woman is the right woman for you. If I’m heavily religious and don’t believe people should have sex before marriage, then I will be asking if you’ve had sex before, and if the number is high, I will (rightfully) conclude that you aren’t the woman for me. If you lie and give a small number, then all you’re doing is creating a relationship founded on lies, which is doomed to failure – aka divorce. And you wonder why the divorce rate is so high?
Here’s the only tip women need to know: Be yourself and be honest (although don’t dump it all on him in one go.) If he’s the right man for you, then he will accept this, because it *is* what makes you the person you are. You *want* guys who won’t accept this to run away, because you won’t waste your time with a man who will never accept you.
P.S. I loled really hard at #4. What you wrote is the definition of friends with benefits. Neither of you are interested in a relationship with the person, but they’re good enough to fuck. Everyone has physical needs (men and women) and this is a good way to get it out with a single person rather than random people (hence lower risk of disease.) Any person who agrees to a FWB relationship, wanting something more, and hoping it will develop into something more is an idiot, plain and simple.
Caleb, this is a site for women who aren’t “hot” by the conventional western definition, so the advice is going to be geared for their benefit…not for the benefit of men who want to exploit their vulnerability.
I’m not seeing where the conflict between us is. You basically said the same thing I did, just from the point of view of a guy who doesn’t want us to think shit testing from males is a “red light”. You yourself don’t seem to be very respectful or very loving, so I don’t know who you think you’re speaking for. You the asshole defending the nice guys or something?
You said nothing like what I said. I said that if you want to find a man who loves you for you, then ANSWER HIS QUESTIONS HONESTLY. If he dumps you for them, so be it.
Your advice is to dump him first if he dares to ask the question. I do not see how that is the same.
FYI, I asked my wife how many guys she’d slept with on our third date. She asked me the same thing. Neither of us took offense, and neither of us lied. Your number does partially define you as a person. If it’s a small number for your age, then you’re going to be relatively inexperienced, and likely to be somewhat prudish. If it’s a large number for your age, then you’re going to be relatively experienced, and likely to be very open to sexual activities.
Here’s the key: NEITHER of those is inherently bad. One guy will prefer one answer, another guy an entirely different one. Answer truthfully, and you will wind up with a man who likes you for you.
You advocate lying, disseminating and playing games. I’m here to tell you this: If you want anything more than a fling, don’t do any of those.
The advice you’re giving women is horrible, and any woman who takes it will regret it.
Also: “Hot” by the western definition is not what the average guy considers attractive. It’s what the magazines push, and it’s a self-perpetuating view. Just because all the magazines seem to believe XXX = hot does not mean the average man believes this. For example, most guys I know do not like women with overly large breasts. If you read the magazines, you would not believe this.
To put it another way: Unless you have some severe features which mar your appearance, some guys will not find you attractive, and others will. That is the beauty of having a diverse group of people, all with different criteria for what they consider attractive. What I find to be a turnoff, other guys find to be a turn-on.
The biggest mistake you or any woman can make is to think of herself as ugly, simply because she does not look like a certain brand of woman. Confidence is the greatest factor in a person’s attractiveness. If you like yourself, other people will like you as well.
Caleb, I’d like you to point out where in my article that I advised anyone to lie.
It’s just that unless the guy takes the woman seriously, how many guys she’s slept with in the past isn’t really his business. If it does have the potential to be serious then he would need to know, but if we’re talking preliminary conversation, she already knows she’s dealing with a conservative guy for whom there is no right answer but 0. If her answer isn’t 0 then she knows she’s not suited for him without blabbering all her business to someone who’s basically a stranger.
…and I hate to break this to you, but the idea that a physical flaw isn’t allowed to be a flaw anymore is straight up bullshit. This doubletalk is what makes many girls want to slash their wrists when they hear the verbal PC diarrhea spewing from people in purposeful denials’ lips.
I’m not “voluptuous” damnit. I’m fat. Some guy trying to get into my pants is not going to help matters by being deceptive about it. It will be nice to find someone who will love me even though I’m fat, but to pretend that it is something that it isn’t is crazy making. I wish men wouldn’t do that. I’m not going to get an eating disorder because someone notices the belly. I see it every time I look in the mirror so it’s not news.
Same goes for those who are disabled, or have facial defects, or other health or looks problems. We don’t need you to pretend we’re perfect…just if you like us, perfect for you.
So what I’m trying to do here is help women regain their dignity. Discretion is important. Your business is your business and not his business unless he’s gunning to make it his business. A guy who’s planning on exploiting you anyway, does not need to know all your business.
Also bear in mind that this is an article on a website. There are going to be broad generalizations made. I say time and time again that there are exceptions, but their existence does not change the general rule.
In case you haven’t noticed, there’s a lot of casual sex being had these days, and not always under healthy and above board conditions. I’m here to clear away the hype and remind women that we are still female, and this is something that social trends won’t change. The trend now is to make women think it’s okay to date like men, but we’re not men.
Since I womanned up and stopped going with that twisted flow, I have no regrets. That’s a good thing to be able to say…that for the past few years since I learned what guys are really thinking, because I talked to them in a context where they didn’t feel they needed to lie, I have not been confused. I know there are good men out there, and my legs are snapped shut until I encounter one who really does love and respect me, and is man enough to prove it.
I’m a bit old, so my time might be over…but at least I have my dignity. Nobody gets to use and abuse or scam me. That makes me happier than any kind of sex. I don’t need sex as much as I need myself.
This site is for women who feel the same. If you don’t, then don’t let the door hit you…
I’m sorry, I’ll stop trying to dispel your self-pitying delusions. Maybe you should stop trying to meet men at bars.
I don’t meet men at bars. Bars/pubs are for hanging out with my friends, most of whom are male. I have, on occasion, met a guy at a bar even though I don’t go there for that, and most of them have been okay because they could stand shoulder to shoulder with my bros. Otherwise, nobody gets close.
I’m not bitter. I’m just not into getting used like a rag. I don’t understand what’s so wrong about not enjoying being treated like dirt.
Nothing wrong with not wanting to be treated like dirt. Everything wrong with your filtering method. Your filtering method will remove the good guys as well.
Caleb, that depends what you mean by “good”. There are many technically good men who want to marry a virgin, and will treat everyone else like slag, regardless of how they spin it. So if a woman isn’t a virgin, she should avoid these good men like a plague, not because they’re bad people, but because they aren’t suitable for her.
One thing guys don’t seem to get is that love isn’t mathematics. It isn’t enough to be good. One has to match well with one’s partner.
So guys should learn to be more direct about the kind of woman who is a good match for them, rather than playing games or doing shit tests. Well, the wrong sort anyway. They do nothing to help men avoid legit exploiters or hoes, just as they do nothing to protect women from true cads.
If people are straightforward with each other, we don’t have to try to parse hidden meanings. Thing is, it takes courage to do this.
There’s another angle to this. As more people are waking up and realizing that a fast life is not for them, we’re in a generation of the redeemed. Whether someone finds Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, Nietzsche or Ellegua, some people have checkered pasts, but have made serious changes. Those people who are probably more stable than the inexperienced, need to know that their past, while a legitimate reason for concern, is not going to kill their future with a potential partner.
Thank you for the info. im a male, some of this shit is true but some of it wont help no women in the realworld. you wont to know why. Find me on wordpress.com
email is leorey
Wow, you two (Mamasan & Caleb) are having a good ol’ debate there… and you both make for a good argument.
I enjoyed your article Mamasan; you make some valid points and, for those averagely attractive young woman, offer some sound advice on what can be expected from “some” members of the opposite sex. But, Caleb is right, if you are faking your filtering by telling any prospective partner what you believe they want to hear, then how can you possibly believe they are the one for you?
At the end of the day, if an individual has some standards, and chooses NOT to sleep with a new partner until they are confident they are not just after a “hump & dump” then, if that new person IS only after a non-commital quickie, it’ll all become quite apparent relatively soon.
We all take risks in new relationships, and matters of the heart, so it’s important for folk to remember not to beat themselves up too much if they are wrong about someone.
Caleb has often referred to Mamasan’s comments ref: the numbers of partners…. well, if you’ve slept with more than 20 people (by your 30′s) then I’d like to think you were done with trying-out and were ready for a firmer commitment. Still, a person’s past is exactly that, and will have contributed towards making them the person they are;one that may steal away your heart.
Ultimately, in order to attract a person with the same values, beliefs, moral standards etc… YOU NEED TO BE YOURSELF…. and if that tall, dark, handsome, charming stranger wrinkles his nose, says oh, makes his excuses and runs away, then it wasn’t mean’t to be… there’s nothing more to it than that!
Mamasan,
I’m into all the community stuff, and most of what you’re saying is true but you seem to be working on the assumption that casual sex is a really bad thing that women should never do or want.
Also some of those questions I have asked purely to make conversation, not as a shit test at all “where’s the craziest place you’ve had sex” is one I will ask early on just to make fun sexual conversation, I’m not probing for a way to disqualify her or think of her as a “slut”.
Your article has a vibe of resentment towards men IMO. Let me be utterly frank as I think you will appreciate it. IMO a high-quality guy is NEVER going to want to go serious with a fat girl (unless he has some kind of fetish). The reason is: he knows he can do better, and he would feel ashamed to be seen in public with an unattractive girl. Yes you’re right that if a guy is horny and desperate enough he will fuck a “less attractive” girl. And if he thinks he can do no better he may hook up with her long-term (which makes me cringe). So you want a guy who is only with you because he felt like he couldn’t do any better?
Answer: get off your ass and exercise. And stop eating shit. “Game” is for guys, we do the gaming, you do the looking hot. If you slob out and whine that guys don’t like you because your fat, and then try to counter their game, you are NOT helping yourself at all.
Your body fat and muscle tone are very much in your control, as are the clothes you wear, the quality of your skin, the tone of it, your hair etc etc. So don’t bring out the victim mentality on “I was born ugly”.
So many fat girls have the tagline “don’t judge a book by its cover” on dating sites. Sorry, but guys are very visual creatures when it comes to attraction. Hoping guys will like you despite you being hideous and down on yourself is setting yourself up for massive failure.
Much love.
Rich x
I’ll try to make this advice more practical:
If I were a girl and wanted to attract more and better quality guys, have more choice in dating and more control and get more respect from guys…
I would:
#1 Eat a healthy diet (4-6 small meals, each with a fruit/veg portion)
Why: Improves all physical qualities, necessary but not sufficient to be hot
#2 Excercise (cardio eg: jogging/cycling and a bit of toning eg:swimming/rowing)
Why: Improves body shape, lowers fat and tones muscle
#3 Have a regular skincare routine (cleanse, exfoliate, moisturize, tone)
Why: Skin quality is a health and fertility indicator, and if good is therefore attractive
#4 Get a good hairstyle and look after your hair
Why: Hair is another fertility indicator
#5 Look after other little things (teeth, nails, body+pubic hair)
Why: Clean white teeth are sexy, smooth skin is hot
#6 Get some nice good-fit clothes to show off your body. A bit of cleavage can be a nice tease, but dear god NO if u have fat saggy boobs.
Why: Gotta show that hot body you work hard to maintain
#7 Get some interests other than shopping, pubs, clubs and your mates.
Why: Guys like to have things to talk about, new things to try and learn and things in common. They’d rather not have generic retard girl #1000
#8 After having done 1-7 THEN you can think about GAME. But to be honest by now ur so hot u don’t need it. So many guys will approach you it’ll get on your nerves, you just gotta pick.
I’ve thought about this and the body IS more important than the face to me. I’ve seen girls with beautiful faces but their cheeks are a big fat and their body is horrid. I won’t go near them. If they did all the things I mentioned above they’d probably be 10s and the whole game would be flipped around and I’d be trying to game them while they had the power of choice.
Rich, thank you for the reminder of the Priorities of the Doomed.
What you’re saying is nothing new. It is in almost every issue of Cosmopolitan magazine ever printed.
Mainstream standards are way too low. A hot good conversationalist can drown your kids in the bathtub. We’re not looking for the guys who would settle for that.
I once had a girl ask me what I was looking for while we were on a first date. After I gave an honest answer, I asked her the same question. Her only response was that she was looking for a “nice guy.” I guess I should have perceived this as a red flag – she obviously didn’t want to answer the same exact question that she just asked me.
The whole thing is pointless, All men hate women and will treat them with as much contempt as they can get away with. Forget it and buy a vibrator. You won’t have the grief or the STI’s and at least you’ll actually have an orgasm.
A woman who has had sex with 30 different men is very promiscuous. I don’t know how you can deny this. Even if she is “reasonably attractive,” she has probably had at least one multi-year relationship during her life and that would cut down on her total number of partners.
I agree with your argument that men think that women who have had sex with too many men are sluts. However, I disagree that men devalue women who had been with “too few” men. There is no such thing as “too few” to most men. Most men like it if a woman has only been with a handful of men – that is something for a woman to be proud of.
By the way, I have never asked a woman either of those questions. Are those questions commonly asked?
It seems pretty clear from the variety of comments on here that we just can’t generalise to the extent that we’re all trying to here, but here’s my bit of generalisation anyway.
As a guy I’m not going to lie – yes, men obviously do seem to be more visual than women, but I think it’s not necessarily the case that this means one version of visual beauty is the key to all good looking men’s hearts – I mean, look around you (not in the media, in real life!) It always amazes me the amount of difference I perceive in attractiveness between two people who are a couple, and this isn’t always the average bloke with the stunning girlfriend by any means (unless I’ve just got a warped view of beauty!). What the original article says in some ways is true I think, in that the typical man is driven to a large extent by his own ego – he wants to feel like the person he is with is, just a bit, better than him, because he wants other people to think he’s done well for himself. Therefore I’d say the key to gaining respect, love and hell, downright lust from a man is CONFIDENCE in yourself. I don’t mean cockiness or arrogance, but just by being that little bit of a challenge. And yes that probably does mean looking after yourself physically to some degree – not necessarily by being slim, but choosing flattering clothes for you, nice hairstyle, etc. More than this however, it is about communicating to the guy that you are worth it: if you are average looking but feel great about yourself and help others to do the same this rubs off on the people you are around, and men will and do see this and like it. Speaking personally there have been many many fairly average looking women that I have been immensely attracted to because they have just got ‘it’ in the way I’ve described – and I’m sure that I’m not in the minority on this.